Propagation... why do I miss some signals?

[cutty]

Here's one set of theories that can explain how Blitzortung Systems interact with the environment,...




Special acknowledgment to Dupreezd  for assistance with these two graphics...

[allsorts]

Like those, espeically the first showing why one station will see a strike but one not that far away won't.

One comment decide if it's going to be and Air/Earth capacitor or an Earth/Air one.

[cutty]

Like those, espeically the first showing why one station will see a strike but one not that far away won't.

One comment decide if it's going to be and Air/Earth capacitor or an Earth/Air one.

Heh...  Good point, Dave... I'll update, and 'standardize'.... with something...
There's a 'concept' called the Earth Ionosphere Capacitor (EIC) ... but it doesn't account for or disregards many of the effects of atmospheric charge...
So the "Atmospheric Capacitor"  is a bit more valid.... and I do not think there is a 'standard' name for this affect.... best way I've discovered
is to call lit the "Earth-Atmosphere Capacitor"... since the actual 'upper plate' is really not defined and probably can't be, more or less a 'virtual' plate.....
since so many variables determine it' content, height, thickness', position...appear to determine its 'structure'...  etc.... So I tried to use all three 'variations' within
the graphic... Earth-Atmosphere, Earth - Air, Air-earth ,,, Since E Probe uses 'earth' as 'plate, I may go with "Earth-Atmosphere" to distinguish dramatically from the
"Earth Ionosphere Capacitor' hypothesis....

For me, the important part is that the Probe tends to act as a 'mini-duplicate' of the instantaneous Ion, proton, electron,whatever,  'charges'  within that 'virtual' capacitor, rather than as a VLF antenna...
... even using the term "mirror" could be misleading, since the 'image' isn't a 'mirror' necessarily (reversed), more of a 'copy'...


ADDENDA:  Modified  using "Earth / Atmosphere" as ref.
Thanks, Dave...

Mike

[dupreezd]

Thanks Mike, even though I have been a member for some time, these pictures are very informative and provide a good picture how those bouncy waves work.
The E-field picture provides a clear view regarding the working of the Earth-Atmosphere capacitor.

Thanks again.

Dries

[cutty]

Thanks Mike, even though I have been a member for some time, these pictures are very informative and provide a good picture how those bouncy waves work.
The E-field picture provides a clear view regarding the working of the Earth-Atmosphere capacitor.

Thanks again.

Dries

And I thank You.. for your input developing those.... I overlooked giving you the kudo, but have added it to the first post....

[vk2him]

Nicely done Mike and Dries - one pedantic point though sticks out with the E Field - Are you sure the probes at different locations sense these changes instantaneously? - I'd think sensing is delayed by propagation though our atmosphere due to the speed of light through our atmosphere. I know Quantum mechanics allows for instantaneous transmission over an unlimited distance due to Quantum entanglement, however I don't think the E/A capacitor falls into that category?

[cutty]

.,.. one pedantic point though sticks out with the E Field - Are you sure the probes at different locations sense these changes instantaneously? - I'd think sensing is delayed by propagation though our atmosphere due to the speed of light through our atmosphere. I know Quantum mechanics allows for instantaneous transmission over an unlimited distance due to Quantum entanglement, however I don't think the E/A capacitor falls into that category?

Without all the advanced physics possibilities, ... which I've no understanding, .... like, "how fast is gravity?"
... let's just assume propagation at C, ... then it's more about this... which I can wrap my teeny old brain around:
....at the location of the device (antenna or probe) the probe responds instantaneously to it's environmental charge,  as opposed to antenna 'delays'...
as in  E Charge H Magnetic  with E also, in a manner of speaking,  reflecting a better 'energy content' image of the impulse, especially in 'pre-discharge' time

[vk2him]

.,.. one pedantic point though sticks out with the E Field - Are you sure the probes at different locations sense these changes instantaneously? - I'd think sensing is delayed by propagation though our atmosphere due to the speed of light through our atmosphere. I know Quantum mechanics allows for instantaneous transmission over an unlimited distance due to Quantum entanglement, however I don't think the E/A capacitor falls into that category?

Without all the advanced physics possibilities, ... which I've no understanding, .... like, "how fast is gravity?"
... let's just assume propagation at C, ... then it's more about this... which I can wrap my teeny old brain around:
....at the location of the device (antenna or probe) the probe responds instantaneously to it's environmental charge,  as opposed to antenna 'delays'...
as in  E Charge H Magnetic  with E also, in a manner of speaking,  reflecting a better 'energy content' image of the impulse, especially in 'pre-discharge' time

I think I follow what you're saying, this is interesting as it's not how I understood it worked and I'd like to learn more ... using the graph in your post as an example, are you saying that since the magenta E signal appears before the M Green signal, then it's because the M antenna takes longer to display the signal (due to antenna 'delays')?

My understanding of how e-probes and antenna work in transferring the energy they receive is a bit different- assuming equal internal processing delays by the BO receiver regardless of E or M inputs, a Magnetic impulse hitting the antenna at the exact same instant the eProbe senses the charge from the same lightning source should have identical start points in time on the graph. This is because a magnetic impulse and E signal travel at the speed of light - the rise in the graph shows the increase in the energy received by both sources (M and E). Therefore, if the E displays before the M then it can only be cause the E arrives before the M ... To my thinking there is only two possibilities of why the E arrived before the M in your graph 1) The E component of the strike was "created" before the M signal - I'm not 100% sure of the physics involved in a lightning strike, what "part" of the strike creates the M and E and is one "made" before the other? and 2) the E signal took a more direct route than the M which was delayed slightly due to reflection, ie, the M signal travelled a slightly further distance and was therefore displayed behind the E.

As an aside and if you're interested ... gravity travels at the speed of light - if the sun suddenly disappeared by magic right now, the earth would continue to orbit where the sun used to be until the exact same time that we saw the sun's light "disappear" - the earth would then shoot off into space in a straight line at the exact same time.

Cheers

[cutty]

It's easy to 'mix' theories, here... one reason I posted these was to provoke discussion!  I'm not sure anyone knows Exactly what happens here... but my limited research and background has led to these thoughts... let me fumble my way through them...
Assume Vertically polarized EM signal, wave (planar) explanation:

One cannot exist without the other. They are in phase, one supports and produces the other. An EM wave can be produced either with a changing Voltage Signal, or a changing Current. Whichever, it will cause the creation of it's "partner".  The H signal plane (magnetic field) energy, exists at right angles to the E plane (energy field)

An antenna must be of construction type,  physical length, and mount orientation to receive the the specific field 'plane'.
EM travels inside the Earth Ionosphere wave guide, as surface (subsurface also if ELF), space, or skywaves. and in a vacuum propagate at the speed of light. They are created by man, or by nature.

The impulses we are interested in are produced by nature, through sudden changes in the electrical charge environment of the atmosphere, (charge, discharge, steady state) caused by build up or decrease in charges, such as protons, electrons, ions, what-have-you.  A discharge, cascade, etc. can be triggered, for example, by a cosmic wave, change in earth''s magnetic field... jet plane, meteor,.... etc....or exceeding the 'voltage breakdown' potential of the 'envelope' that contains the charge.

The H field loops  detect the magnetic portion of this 'EM impulse' wave.  If strong enough, it will also detect some of the E wave components.  for our purposes, we use a long wire constructed in a loop.... if it were a true wavelength long, for an impulse with energy centered at 15 kHz  would be about 20,000 meters in length (20 Km or 12.4 Mi).... Our loops don't have to be that long, because of some  funky characteristics of EM signals, and fancy mathematics... heh...

An E probe of 150mm length would be fantastic for detecting the Vertical E field signal in the 2 GHz band... but iis much too 'short' for an E 'wave field' at 3-300 Khz... unless the field was very intense... It is virtually immune to H(magnetic) influences since it is NOT a coil. ... sure, it will 'feel' E 'plane' 2GHz RF, but our systems cut off at around 300 KHz..

Instead, the probe surface area mimics the CHARGE content, and changes in the environment around itself at any given instant.  In effect, a 'capacitor' plate.    this charge  in the virtual capacitor between the probe and earth is impedance matched to the receiver's amplifier chain. The Common plate for the virtual EA capacitor, and the E probe capacitor is Earth.

This charge field is NOT an EM wave field.  It will produce an EM field of whatever polarity and strength is proportional to that total charge, and its strength,   depending on the amount and speed of the content change. It is the progenitor of, not an artifact of, the EM impulse wave.

A person might say that the EM impulse we detect with a loop is therefore initialized  by the atmospheric content changes of the required intensity, at that location and in that environment, and its E plane partner rides along with it.

The E probe monitors and reflects that atmosphere content instantaneously as it is 'felt' at the probe. Whereas an EM receiver must 'wait' until the change is strong enough to create a 'wave front'. ... so the E probe signal in theory should be just a tiny bit 'faster' on a display device for example, and considerably 'faster' depending on the number of reflections the EM might make from a distant impulse.

If you should take a passive CB or similar vertical antenna, disconnect it from the receiver, and connect a volt meter across the connector, you can watch the 'field' value change as a storm cloud passes overhead.

Note that the EA capacitor charge content DOES NOT reflect off the Earth Ionosphere Wave guide, as an EM wave does.  It is felt WITHIN that capacitor formed by Earth Atmosphere in it's entirety, as fast as the 'charges' can propagate. Since it doesn't reflect, it has a 'shorter' path to a more distant receiver. And theoretically could be detected by all... no "skip"....  Unfortunately, this can't occur in our reality...the actual propagation is affected,  e.g.  more intense local field changes near any specific receiver obscure, variable changes in the air dielectric, etc....

So, if the above is some 'rough' thinking, as a 'starting point'..... we can evolve a real hypothesis that explains everything,  publish a paper, win a Nobel Prize, and become rich and famous...
Have at it....

[vk2him]

That's a terrific explanation Cutty, thanks for taking the time to describe it - I'm sold