shield the E-field ?

[Rothuize]

Hi to you all

 I wonder is it possible to shield the E-field
 
Because I see it  receive many noise   really   many  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I have test it  
 
Test 60min
Test 1  only the shield ferrite 18:45 – 19:45   =    signals = 3052   M=48.2%  L=20.9%
 
Test 2  ferrite shield  + 90cm loop =  signals = 5670   M=20.7%  L=33.5%
 
Test 3 E-field ( 20cm ) signals = 32854   M=11.1%  L=9.1%   very high !!!!!!
 
Here below the graphic
You see the green line  this is ok   but the rest is to noisy
So is it possible to shield the E-field  ??
 
Greetings   Gert

[Knickohr]

Shield the e-field ? From what ???

If your e-field produces so much signals, then lower the gain and/or increase the threshold. Play with the threshold, if one channel is producing a lot of triggers, disable it (setting threshold to 0).

Thomas

[cutty]

E field is designed to detect the electric component of the signal.  Shielding is designed to eliminate the electric component, on magnetic (H field) loops.  The E-field is a 'probe' antenna, and it's effectiveness depends upon "air", and the probe's physical dimensions ... it should be mounted outdoors, say a minimum of 2 meters above ground.  Mine is 7 meters.  And it should be mounted as far away from buildings, noise sources as is practical.  Because of the construction, you're not limited in recommended Cable runs, as recommended for H field... so theoretically you could easily locate the assembly a hundred meters away from the Amp and Controller... the signal delay / power loss / noise isn't the same with Coax as it might be with CAT cable....
The other thing about E field... the system is very sensitive... for example, attempting to run with similar gains to settings for H field will result in 'too much' gain.. the pre-amp gain for RED E field is actually held low by design.  During development, it was noted that 'even a metal beer bottle cap' for a probe will work!

I might suggest this thread, from WxForum net, which basically discusses and explores adding RED E field to an Existing RED H field system.  Might give you some more insight.  http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=22710.0   There is other 'good reading' in other threads from the Region 3 (Americas) operators as the network grew and we struggled with the construction and learning phases.
Cheers!
Mike

[Steph]

It is also important to understand that in the e-field system the grounding is part of the antenna.
A noise free ground is just as much important as a noise free probe.

[cutty]

It is also important to understand that in the e-field system the grounding is part of the antenna.
A noise free ground is just as much important as a noise free probe.

Steph,
I'm assuming you're referring to the single ground on the controller, not a ground on the E preamp????   The coax itself if part of the filtering, and the probe capacitance uses the air as dielectric between probe and the physical earth, right?  So don't 'ground' the preamp.  Just for clarification???

Mike 

[Steph]

It doesn't matter where the ground is. Since the e-field antenna has no counterweight and isn't decoupled (wouldn't make sense without counterweight), the ground wire acts as radiator (also the coax shield if the ground is at the controller).


Could be prevented if it was this way:
   

[cutty]

It doesn't matter where the ground is. Since the e-field antenna has no counterweight and isn't decoupled (wouldn't make sense without counterweight), the ground wire acts as radiator (also the coax shield if the ground is at the controller).


Could be prevented if it was this way:

Since "it doesn't matter where the ground is", my strong suggestion, for RED, especially dual RED with H and E field reception, is to stick with the cookbook, and ground at the controller only.

[Rothuize]

Shield the e-field ?  From what ???

If your e-field produces so much signals, then lower the gain and/or increase the threshold. Play with the threshold, if one channel is producing a lot of triggers, disable it (setting threshold to 0).

Thomas

               from this big  380V noise  maker  Thomas

[Rothuize]

and thanks to you all for the reply's
I have now disable Channel A from the e-field  and run on Manuel
hope this will work ?

and yes I have ground the board  already 
If I disable it 
It will have many  more noise

[Knickohr]

Ahhhh,

I remember this picture

Test it a few hours. Maybe "auto adapt to noise" and "auto amplitude filter" ON give some more efficiency.

Thomas

[cutty]

Ahhhh,

I remember this picture

Test it a few hours. Maybe "auto adapt to noise" and "auto amplitude filter" ON give some more efficiency.

Thomas

Here, try this!   If you haven't, try setting up alternate channel mapping as in http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=22710.0... Now find which H field the noise worse on.    Make sure it's coming from that monster in your backyard.  It's probably near field magnetic, and doing much to E field won't help on the e-field channels... the field might be so strong, that the probe or preamp circuitry intercepts it... in that case E needs to be relocated... it might be as simple as lowering the probe a few feet,  but watching your sigs for awhile, I think, with Alternate Channel Mapping turned on, you can lower gains on E B channel and help that somewhat... that was an impression, and may be wrong on a quick look... you'd still have it on C channel, but you might be able to compromise between A and C, if you follow me.  Now, C channel is the most important one... so even if you have to 'sacrifice' those so-called effectrivity/efficiency figures to contribute with "quality'. if It's e field, there's not a lot you can do, except relocate e field antenna somewhere at minimum disturbance.  If it's H field, you could run that channel, and also E field (A or B at different thresholds/gains, if you're in Alternate Channel Mapping.  I've found the best way, overall, to locate and eliminate noise sources is to stay full manual, no filters, and play with the things as you track it down, or do the things necessary to mitigate the noise.  If your're not running "Alternate channel mapping' the way we explored it, than your settings can 'interfere' for lack of a better word, with the 2 different amps.    It is also possible that that monster down the hill has a 'better' or 'worse' ground than you have on the controller. It only takes a tiny amount of difference to mess stuff up, and go 'ground looping'.  I had to play with 'controller' ground a bit before I found that the Television Cable ground connection was best in my location.  One other thing you could do, if it's the monster, tell the Utilities company that you cannot receive AM radio, and it's due to radiation from that thing... . 

seriously... when I first set up, I had an awful time with H field... it took some time to find the best spot for locating H field ferrites.  But this made it easier to locate the E field assy, later on.  Now, my environment has changed, somewhat, and I'm having difficulty resolving the issues.  However, because I had determined my 'baseline' environment, I can accept the junk, and adjust, as needed.  Auto Mode does NOT work well for me, it may later, with the release of BLUE, and the developers bring it our of what is still "BETA".... the 'so called' 'auto amplitude' and 'adjust to noise level' are also unsatisfactory, in my environment... I'm best in 'manual', and learning how to 'judge' the current environment... I 'don't ride gain', but I do some evaluation before modifying any settings... .

Also, remember, it's possible not all of your 'junk' is from 'the monster'... a couple of Operators and I have attempted 'matching signals'... and in all instances, we'd both log the same signal, not accepted by the server, though we were several hundred miles apart.  Some of it looked exactly like 'a nearby sodium vapor light', which was impossible.  Try the above, if you haven't, don't beat your head on the wall, this is part of the 'fun'    

I just reread this.. sounds pretty rambling... sorry. Hope you can make sense of it...

[Rothuize]

Hi Mike

Yes I have edit it already yesterday  (alternate channel mapping)
And I have disable channel A from the E-Field    really this one pick all the noise
If it is on  I can not count  the counter anymore   it go fast  from 1 till 100  …….  Up and up
Manuel settings  are from yesterday
Channel A Gain 10/4  85MV
Channel B Gain 10/4 85MV
 
Channel A Gain  0 Mv
Channel B Gain 5/8 90mv
Channel C Gain 5/5 85mv
 
Only I find something strange   with low lighting  I have also low noise
And if there is high activity   my noise go also very fast up 
You can see into the graphic from Bltzortung  it follow it  only with a very high count 
 
AM Radio
Ahh that’s a good one .. only nobody is listening on the AM  here anymore     only  FM radio
And if I am walk with a small radio  on AM 1.6  I do not here it   so that’s strange !!
I have also walk around with the RED  and a laptop  1 small loop   and so I discovers the noise maker !!
Only that will not work anymore    I think this fireware will not work anymore with a cross cable   see this https://forum.blitzortung.org/showthread.php?tid=369&pid=3679#pid3679
 
New place antenna ?
It is for my not possible to place my antenna on a new spot
Only I can try only this 
I live to a river  and next to my house I have 2 small bridge  only 1.5m up from the water
Is it possible a put the e-field below it ?
Bridge 1 concrete  so this will not work  I think
  Bridge 2 = made from wood  so maybe this will work ?
Only I need a coax cable from +_ 25 m
 
Thanks for al the info .
 
Gert

[Knickohr]

Try "auto adapt to noise" and "auto ampl. filter". This will reduce the gain if storms are coming in.

By the way, your station works good, you detect 1/3 of all strokes !

Thomas

[Rothuize]

Try "auto adapt to noise" and "auto ampl. filter". This will reduce the gain if storms are coming in.

By the way, your station works good, you detect 1/3 of all strokes !

Thomas

yes I know Thomas

I turn it on if we have some activity  close by
on this moment not
and if I turn the red to auto  ( also cannel A on )  it will detect  more strikes  but also more noise 
 don't know want Blitzortung want ..  more strikes  and more noise ... ore less  strikes  and less noise
on this moment it is less

[Knickohr]

Neither nor !

The quota strokes(h)/singals(h) is it !

if every signal is a stroke, the station works perfect

Thomas

[cutty]

hmmm.... I'll watch your signals a while later today.... turn A on .... there might be something with the A amplifier channel.... or your have a very unusual noise,... it might be a cold solder joint or something on the amplifier board on one of the ICs ... perhaps the A amplifier might be going into oscillation.   I'd think you'd have some crossover signal into the B channel if it was external...
Meantime, remember what Thomas said above... your station is working pretty darn good!

Mike

[Rothuize]

hmmm.... I'll watch your signals a while later today.... turn A on .... there might be something with the A amplifier channel.... or your have a very unusual noise,... it might be a cold solder joint or something on the amplifier board on one of the ICs ... perhaps the A amplifier might be going into oscillation.   I'd think you'd have some crossover signal into the B channel if it was external...
Meantime, remember what Thomas said above... your station is working pretty darn good!

Mike

hi Mike channel A is  now on  .. still run into Manuel mode

I will sent you via PM  my url   for the controller ,,, you can play with it  if you have the time ?
maybe you see something
but I now what you will see   ( a wave into the noise   )  

greetings  Gert

 

[cutty]

hmmm.... I'll watch your signals a while later today.... turn A on .... there might be something with the A amplifier channel.... or your have a very unusual noise,... it might be a cold solder joint or something on the amplifier board on one of the ICs ... perhaps the A amplifier might be going into oscillation.   I'd think you'd have some crossover signal into the B channel if it was external...
Meantime, remember what Thomas said above... your station is working pretty darn good!

Mike

hi Mike channel A is  now on  .. still run into Manuel mode

I will sent you via PM  my url   for the controller ,,, you can play with it  if you have the time ?
maybe you see something
but I now what you will see   ( a wave into the noise   )  

greetings  Gert

 Hi Gert... sent you a quick PM reply with additional thoughts:
Click the below video to play... I've a suspicion this is something arcing...
the video shows the FFT for your A channel E amp, and the signal and FFT for B...
this thing has harmonics around 10-12 kHz throughout the bandpass, but does not show that much on H field, which makes me think it's an arc, electrical, of some type... see the PM....


Hope it's minor, but see if you can track it down...

Respect, and Cheers!
Mike

[cutty]

Check your email

M

[Rothuize]

thanks for your Mail  Mike


Today I was busy with put the antenna on a new spot  ( below a bridge ) ....but also many noise 
A friend say I have a problem with the home power net  ( 230v ) and I need a govanis travo
I think I spell it wrong  because I can not find it with google ?
Someone know this  ??

Also I  made some movies  
http://www.weerstation-woerden.nl/movie_red/long test.swf.html  = below the bridge

http://www.weerstation-woerden.nl/movie_red/test achter all.swf.html = behind the house

you see that the graphs go from left to right  ?? really strange
 
greetings  Gert